Don Smales on digital first talent
AiMCO Influencer Marketing in the Frame
Episode#2 - 15 Minutes in the Frame - Patrick Whitnall with Don Smales
Maverick digital-first talent manager Dom Smales on what’s next
In this episode we speak to Dominic Smales who founded Gleam Futures in 2010.
Long before the world of influencers and its culture emerged, Dom grew his company into a multimillion-pound market leader, specialising in managing and protecting digital first talent. Over the course of 10 years at Gleam Dom pioneered digital-first talent and the influencer marketing industry becoming synonymous with quality talent who help the growth of quality brands. In the last decade, Dom has stewarded the hugely successful team in the UK, and overseas in America and Australia and expanding into global brands, movies, TV shows, podcasts, books, and of course broking 1000’s of brand partnerships. Dom recently exited the business to pursue new projects, as he considers the next evolution for online talent and entertainment.
Dominic, welcome to AiMCO's podcast.
Dominic Smales:
Thank you very much for having me, Patrick.
Patrick Whitnall:
So, Dom, looking back over the last 10 years and starting Gleam Futures in 2010. How would you reflect on those years and where we are now?
Dominic Smales:
I would reflect on it being an insane journey that has evolved at just a breakneck pace if you think about what's happened in the last 10 years for digital first talent, social media and influencer marketing.
Patrick Whitnall:
Dom thinking about the talent that you first signed to where you left the business, with the growth of influencers, did you imagine where this digital first talent could go within the industry?
Dominic Smales:
I had a sense, almost immediately that it was going to be a thing, like a big thing, because I was watching very carefully the growth rates, not only at the talent channels themselves on social media platforms, but the growth rate in terms of total audience of the platforms they were creating on. So back in 2010, it was all about YouTube and the birth of the YouTuber. And Twitter is a platform that was exploding at the time. Also, obviously, Instagram was either in its very, very early stages or hadn't even been invented yet, but it certainly wasn't on my radar then.
Patrick Whitnall:
And when we think about it, I remember you saying to me years ago (terming the phrase) ‘digital first talent’ and how you looked at ways of bringing and extending their brand into traditional formats, such as TV books, films. As this starts to grow further in this market in Australia as talent and talent managers think about how they develop their talent beyond the social spaces that they're in and where their audience is, what tips would you be giving them around how to manage and grow their talent?
Dominic Smales:
So yeah, this is I think this is the biggest opportunity in Digital First talent is the creation of IP. And it was that realisation that spawned the proper kind of like, arrival of influencers, digital first talent, wherever you want to call them on the mainstream media landscape. Because it was when they started selling decent amounts of books or product outside of what was available on social media platforms that the rest of the world really sits up and takes notice.
The first instance of that for us was in 2014, with a book from Alfie Deyes who had a channel called Pointless Blog. And he published a book called The Pointless Book, which is like an activity book basically you filled in as you went through and did certain tasks and so on. And it was then only a few months after that, that Zoe Sugg known then as 'Zoella', published Girl Online the first fiction novel from a digital first talent, from an influencer. And it broke all records for the fastest selling debut novel of all time in the UK. In fact, it was the fastest selling debut novel of all time, in the world globally. And that's really where the really interesting opportunities start to arise.
So, I would say to anybody, managing or the talent themselves, as they start out thinking about what is unique about their content, which they would have had that thought already, either signing the talent or becoming a talent, and then think about what other platforms that content exists on in a relevant way, and how to protect that IP and make it even more original because that's the gold dust here. That's the golden goose, is how brilliant and original your content is and how well your audience engages with that content. But there are lots of ways that you can grow that content for audiences. It's not all about you know, the likes on our social media platform.
Patrick Whitnall:
And thinking about how we grow that with brands, because that's an important part as well as a revenue stream for a number of influencers and brands, I guess the journey that we've gone through has been doing brand partnerships to effectively promote the product to influencers now, creating content. And now we're moving into help sell my product with the rise of e-com. Is that something that you would support as an area of growth where you would start to see more talent, representing brands? So through the likes of growth of Shopify and others from an e-commerce perspective, you'll start to see that more influences not only selling their own products, but selling others as well.
Dominic Smales:
Yeah, I think the key thing about partnerships with brands for any influencer is the honesty and credibility that goes into that relationship. So you, I think we're seeing deeper and deeper relationships with brands on social media with influencers. So instead of the market going super broad, and hopefully, we will see it go much deeper. So, the influencer will be able to, in some cases, co-found the launch of brands, with manufacturers, or found relationships with brands that go so deep that they become part of the total integrated marketing campaign, rather than just a, you know, a poster child for a brief moment on social media, I think e-commerce is a very exciting place to be. And I think direct to consumer brands are very exciting place to be also. And I think influencers in the way that they work with brands lends itself perfectly to being able to effectively market these to these retail spaces. I guess. So yeah, I think that influencers are going to have a very interesting time of it as the next few years, but I think the relationships will just run deeper and deeper with the with the product so that they're able to effectively and authentically market the products.
Patrick Whitnall:
And as that develops further, something that we've been doing at AiMCO with our Code of Practice is to talk around disclosure as this is a very important topic for influencers to understand, and also brands, when you are connecting and promoting to the public. In this market in Australia, there is the ACCC and Australian Consumer Law, which protects consumers around this, but it's not necessarily something that is common place yet when it comes to advertising disclosure (for influencers). The UK is slightly further ahead than Australia, and I just wondered where, and what learnings we could take from a disclosure perspective from that market.
Dominic Smales:
Yeah, it's often a minefield as any kind of new compliance is, but only due to lack of understanding. So, it's that whole educational experience and education piece that will help everybody get up to speed with what's compliant and what's not compliant when it comes to disclosure.
I think it's an essential part of the evolution of influencer marketing in any market, that the entire effectiveness, or the entire relationship that an influencer has with their audience, is based on trust or should be based on trust. That's why it's such an interesting and effective model for people to communicate on entertain, as well as sell. And it's got to be as clear as possible. But where it's a new landscape of course, there are situations come up that haven't been encountered before. And then you have to work through it and work out what's the best way to disclose etc.
So, in the UK, we've probably come furthest along that compliance evolution. And I think it's getting into a fairly good place. But that's been at the expense of a few mishaps and miscommunications, and misunderstandings, all that kind of stuff. It's all about learning. I always think that the thing that you've got to stick to is the fact that the audience has to understand without a shadow of a doubt, the relationship that you have with a brand, if it's a commercial one. And nowadays, I see a lot of talent in the UK and in the States, slightly less, coming out and talking about their relationship with a brand even if there is not a commercial relationship there, just to cover all bases to make sure that there's absolutely no misunderstanding because I think the influencer themselves is confused, and if they're confused their audiences will definitely be confused. So, there's a bit of kind of over disclosure going on in the marketplace as well at the moment, which can be no bad thing, but it does make the communication or the entertainment slightly clunky in places.
Patrick Whitnall:
So lastly, Dominic, what does the future hold in this space?
Dominic Smales:
Big question, Paddy. And I don't think anyone can really give you the proper answer because no one has a crystal ball.
From my perspective, I think that the whole space now is so full of people creating content on advertising platforms for people, I harken back to the day that the most important relationship used to be between the audience and the creator. And it was a very pure thing. And now that it's kind of become absolutely saturated with contributors, shall I say, on both sides of the fence, the advertiser being one of the biggest, I think it's very interesting to start exploring the purity of that relationship.
Again, I think that as we go forward, creators will be more and more interested in the subscription spaces. So how do I connect with an audience that might be a lot smaller than my AVOD audience on Instagram or YouTube, but there will be 100 times more engaged because they might like me enough, or value my content enough, to pay a small subscription to view it.
I don't think that, you know, I certainly don't think that platforms like Instagram, YouTube and Facebook are anywhere near done, and the creators on those platforms are anywhere near done with the growth that's available. But I think the subscription platforms as an alternative to an income to supplement professional creators’ careers will become a bigger deal for them. So, it will be more important. And being able to do those platforms, you know, professionally, will be an interesting space.
Patrick Whitnall:
And with that, I understand that you've just started a new venture called the Glo Project. Could you tell us a little something about that?
Dominic Smales:
Yeah, so playing on that whole sense that subscription might well become more important, my co-founder and I say, we have started a business called the glow project 'GLO' without the W. And the Glo Project is a network, a talent network that's that supports networks and protects creators who want to make a living on subscription platforms. So, it very specifically is kind it’s like resource for those types of creators to be better on subscription platforms. It helps them with the technology involved in producing content for subscription platforms, it collaborates them to be able to improve their output and reach new audiences on subscription platforms and also protects them because of course, once you're making content for subscription platforms that you charging a subscriber money for, that content is your product, and as we know, sadly, IP theft online is rife so we help protect that IP and make sure that the content that's published on those sites has not leaked.
And if it is, then we will help them get that taken down through legal means. And it's really interesting, it's refreshing because I can see how empowering it is for creators to suddenly start to think more about their audience. Rather than the advertiser. I met my business partner Sophie Howard almost 10 years ago now, she was a model on one of the very first shoots that I organised with Gleam for a large hair brand, she was the hair model, and we stayed in touch as she embarked on an illustrious modelling career. We've chatted all the way through but more recently, in the last couple of years, she's been talking about the fact that she's fed up of a model being sent off to a drafty studio somewhere for a few hundred dollars, giving away all of her IP and all the control over the images that feature her to a photographer or producer or whatever. And then that photographer producer goes off and exploits those rights somewhere else and makes 10 times more money than she has made producing that content or being the subject of that content.
So, she started taking control of producing the content and then uploaded it onto subscription sites, like Only Fans, and Patreon and we also chatted about Twitch etc. and the money that comes from just getting in control of that IP. And so that's how the idea for the business was founded. When we chatted about how that class of creator, models and creators who are used to giving away their content for free, can be encouraged and protected by an organized, best in class compliant business that will help them grow and produce responsibly on subscription platforms.
We just add a bit of kind of rigour around getting organised on those platforms and strategy behind the content. It is a bit like programming a radio show or a TV station or something like that. If you're doing it for an audience that's subscribing to you, then you need to make sure that you're consistent. And you're getting good quality. So, Sophie and I are excited to get going. We're looking to work with talent directly and find creators that have loads of potential to switch some of their attention to subscription platforms, but also with established management companies like Gleam, in fact, to help some creators that they may have on their roster get better or even launch on subscription platforms. There's another alternative revenue stream for both the creator and the management company. So, we're out looking for partners at the moment.
Patrick Whitnall:
Dominic, thank you very much for joining this podcast. It has been a great 10 years to this point, you’ve exited Gleam and given what you just spoke about with the GLO Project it sounds like you’re heading for another fantastically, very successful 10 years in the future. So, thank you again.
Dominic Smales:
Thanks, Paddy, lovely to hear and see you.
Patrick Whitnall:
So, thank you for listening. If you're interested in finding out more about AiMCO, Australian Influencer Marketing Council, please visit our website aimco.org.au where we're working to build confidence and trust in influencer marketing. Thank you for listening.