Scott Guthrie - UK Influencer Marketing Guru
AiMCO Influencer Marketing in the Frame
Episode#3 - 15 Minutes in the Frame - Patrick Whitnall chats with Scott Guthrie
Patrick Whitnall
In this week's In The Frame podcast we welcome Scott Guthrie influencer marketing advisor from the UK and also host of the podcast The Influencer Marketing Lab, which is a weekly podcast which charts the growth spurts and growing pains of influencer marketing. Each week he shares conversations with topic experts about the influencer marketing industry, the business, the tech, the key things and the media coverage. Welcome to the AiMCO podcast, Scott Guthrie.
Scott Guthrie
Well, hello, and thank you very much, Patrick, for inviting me on. I'm a great fan of this, I listened to a few of your other episodes, I particularly like the one with Dominic Smales. He's a past guest on The Influencer Marketing Lab and has lots to say on where the industry has come from and where it's going to. So, thank you very much for having me on the show today.
Patrick Whitnall
It's great to have you on and thank you for referencing our previous podcast. The reason we wanted to have you on the discussion today was to talk about our two markets, the UK and Australia. And, and of course, one of the key things we will probably end up discussing is ad disclosure. But I thought before we even started, it would be worth saying that we should be disclosing something about yourself, which is you do have a bit of an Aussie connection.
Scott Guthrie
I do. I'm very proud of that Aussie connection, I'm a proud carrier of dual nationality with two passports.
I've got an Australian dad, he worked at a Sydney advertising agency before moving over to London in 1963, if you can believe that. So I am ostensibly English, I grew up in England. I toyed with the idea of settling in Sydney around 2001-2002. And I flew over a few times with that goal in mind. In 2013, as we said in the preamble Patrick, I moved with my life partner Patricia and our two small kids to Erskineville for a couple of years, and I worked with John Croll at Isentia for a while whilst I was there. So yeah, I'm proud of the heritage and I've fairly recent working knowledge of the of the two geographical areas. And not least I've worked with one of your founding members, Q83 Anthony Richardson and they are working on their launch of Q83 in the UK and Australian markets.
Patrick Whitnall
So a bit of a foot in both camps in both markets and countries. I'd love to ask you then what's your view from the UK of what’s happening in the influencer marketing space there and elsewhere?
Scott Guthrie on the key developments in the UK:
Well, yeah, there's a lot there's a lot going on - it's a particularly exciting time for influencer marketing.
What's happening in the UK, I think the UK Parliament is starting to roll up its sleeves and look at two related areas simultaneously: its looking at big tech and its level of oligarchic power. And it's looking increasingly at influencer culture. There is a Select Committee that is just putting together written evidence about influencer culture at the moment. So, watch this space on both of those items.
I know that in Australia, you've had your Digital Platforms Inquiry and the ACCC and Facebook and Google that's rumbling on in terms of influencer, marketing developments.
I think there are three main pushes - there's ecommerce and moving into social commerce and that's been accelerated by the global pandemic induced by by COVID-19. I think there's an increasing embracing of live stream commerce that QVC-ification (Quality, Value Convenience) of influencer marketing.
And I think we need to devote a lot more of our time and consideration to all diversity, inclusion, and representation. And that means not just paying lip service but building the importance of this into your brand's DNA being part of who you are. So this week on my podcast, the Influencer Marketing Lab, I'm in conversation with Imogen Cole's influencer programme director, Ogilvy and she talks for example, about diversity starting with diversity of thought. This means representation, starting in the influencer marketing agency, work workforce and then moving out. So it's not just about paying creators equally. It's not just about having different colour faces on your influencer marketing campaigns, but it's about removing that unconscious bias from the production that your agency is putting forward.
Patrick Whitnall
There's something you touched upon there. Something I read recently on the drive of e commerce, said that the influencers are moving into now becoming the new retailers. Is that something that you're starting to see as well?
Scott Guthrie on influencers as retailers:
Yeah. 100%. So, I think this is a big trend, to embrace, but also to watch out for in terms of brands, because I think increasingly, brands have sought to go direct to customers or direct to consumers, and influencers are increasingly doing the same.
And we've seen that from the mega influences from years ago, you know, Emily Weiss, the creator of Glossier she'd moved into that sort of four or five years ago. And her whole makeup product range has been produced with the assistance of influencer marketing and tapping into her audience for creative ideas. Sort of a focus group on steroids.
We've seen that with the Kardashians as well. But now we're seeing sort of the mid-tier moving into direct-to-consumer products and they're going direct to retailers. If you look at, for example, Ryan Kaji, Ryan's World, that nine year old kid, he was Forbes's number one influencer in terms of brand collaborations last year, but that the revenue is dwarfed when you when you consider the amount of money that was earned through white labelling goods in terms of toys and toothbrushes under the banner of Ryan's World's products.
So, we're seeing this blurring of influence as sort of renting out their audience. Also, increasingly, you're seeing an influencer rent, moving from rent out their community, to a brand to actually harnessing and commercialising their own community and working with brands not necessarily as sort of Brand Partners but more as sort of blurring that line and being part owner of products.
Patrick Whitnall
And the diversification of that young man, that's clearly making money outside of brand partnerships. He's clearly there making opportunities through creating, I guess products with brands and utilising his IP. And then Dominic Smales also spoke about a change or movement now for diversification of influencers moving into a subscription-based model, so they are not then overly reliant on brand funded deals.
Scott Guthrie on influencers diversifying:
I think influencers have felt as if they've been sort of stung in the past and once bitten, then twice shy goes the cliche, and they're moving away from, from being completely dependent on one platform.
So, they might spread their risk from Instagram to Tik Tok, for example, because they want to get away from the vagaries of the algorithm, they might be moving away from solely being dependent on YouTube and AdSense revenue, for example, as well. But they also want to make sure that they can isolate themselves from being in and out of favour with brands and brand collaborations.
You know that true influencers are influential, by definition, because they have nurtured the community around them, and they're looking to tap into that community than themselves.
Patrick Whitnall
And that's then let’s touch upon something where the UK is certainly ahead of the Australian market in. And that is Ad Disclosure, which is a really big topic at the moment, given the recent SBS documentary and some high profile cases, recently, where the AANA's, Code of Ethics had been breached through Anna Hendrich and Rozalia's posts. There Zoella, for example, is quite a high profile case, I think, last year.
What was learned, and what was the impact of that in the UK market?
Scott Guthrie on Ad Disclosure:
So, there are a couple of things. The CMA is the Competition's and Markets Authority. And they wrote to 16 influencers, but that was two years ago, I think, saying that they hadn't properly complied with advertising disclosure regulations.
That surprised me a little bit about Zoella. Because I think she A, she has been in the game a long time and B I think, you know, she does her best. So possibly that suggests that the guidelines are shifting or the way the regulators are treating the guidelines is shifting. But I think it's a moveable feast.
And I think it's incumbent on us as practitioners, to work closer with regulators and with big tech companies, to make sure that the consumer is protected just as we are trying to make sure that the advertisers are protected as well.
Patrick Whitnall
And I suppose with the Zoella thing you were surprised there but it was probably a thought that if you get a high-profile person having breached something like this, it will have a wider impact with influencers. That perhaps if someone they wouldn’t expect to, gets caught out then they could get caught out, too.
Scott Guthrie on Regulation
So, you know, if you look at the sanctions at the disposal of the ASA, and the CMA, they start off with trying to shame the influencer. And so, you're better off going after a big-ticket name, so that brings notoriety in the Daily Mail, or the Mail Online, will run a story about it. Either way a well known influencer or a reality TV star is usually up in lights for the shock horror that they haven't, you know, been abiding by the ad regulation.
There was a report undertaking in March by the Advertising Standards Authority. They looked into 122 Instagram accounts to see who was tracking, it was effectively disclosing Ad Disclosures. And they found that out of 24,000 bits of content, and yes, something, like 35%, was effectively disclosed. Now, I mentioned this, because these the 122 parties in the report, weren't randomly selected, these were already Instagram accounts or influencers that had been brought to the attention of the ASA.
So, what this tells me is that there's a minority of influencers, who are aware of the rules and choose to, for whatever reason, presumably through a commercial decision, they've made a decision not to abide by those rules. So, I think back to your point, the regulator's look for a big ticket name, to try and create publicity. But I also think regulators need to look at their own sanctions at their disposal to see you know, what happens to repeat offenders? And should they also just get a slap on the wrist? Or should there be a ladder of sanctions that prevent them from reoffending.
Patrick Whitnall
And you talk about journalism, and it being reported in some of the newspapers and online media. We, as I referenced earlier, recently had an SBS documentary that talks about the ins and outs of influencer marketing and going undercover to understand the fakeness of exposing this space around its practices. You've seen the SBS documentary, I wonder what your thoughts were on that?
Scott Guthrie on media exposure of influencer marketing:
I saw the first the first episode, and it was great telly and that's part of the problem. But to me, it shows you sort of an old-style world of what influencers are and what influencer marketing is sort of bound up or overly excited about vanity metrics.
The industry has moved forward, it's moved away from calculating on likes, and reach or certainly theoretical reach and numbers of engagement. And we're looking more towards metrics and ultimately impact metrics. And that's why I fully commend the work that AiMCO is doing, making sure that the industry and brands are aware of best practice.
Because if you work with an influencer, and set up proper objectives, you'll be measuring things beyond whether that person got, you know, 100 likes or 50 comments or something. You want to know, who's actually bought the product, ultimately. And with that in mind, it's a moot point about influencer fraud or a journalist posing as an influencer. Because ideally, we were measuring things beyond vanity metrics. There was a case in the US, I think at the beginning of the of the year, that Nick Bilton, I think did a very similar style of documentary. But again, it shows me an old school view of influencer marketing. And I think that there is a case for mainstream media being sort of boo hiss when it comes to influencer marketing. And partly that is, because I think you scroll by and I talked about that with Dom that if you scroll back five years, a lot of the common column inches the sentiment was positive about influencer marketing, you get that tall poppy syndrome that the industry has built up influencer marketing and now wants to knock it down.
I think there are a few bad actors within the space that bring bad notoriety to the industry. And I think there's also a conflation between what we talk about influence and what we talk about reality TV stars, suddenly with a big Instagram following, but also, I think there's a disincentive often for mainstream media to eulogise about influencer marketing because increasingly mainstream media or legacy media or traditional media is vying for the same ad spend as influencer marketing spend. So, you know, it's not in their best interest to say what another wonderful story about influencer there is.
Patrick Whitnall
Yes, it certainly did feel like a piece that was put together like when the social network stuff came out with Netflix or Fyre Festival, you started having wider conversations with people that don't work in marketing, or don't really understand social media asking questions like: Is this true? Or does this really happen? It was just perhaps a way of helping to explain to the wider audience what it was, but those in in the industry have probably looked at it with a view, as you have shared, that they have something of an old-world view on the industry.
Scott Guthrie on the growth and evolution of the influencer marketing industry:
But that's because Patrick we live and breathe it, you know, all of my waking, well not all waking hours, all of my working hours are devoted to influencer marketing to the casual consumer isn't that way.
But that's why I think it is. It's almost a godsend this SBS show for AiMCO. Because it has widened that conversation. And it's differentiating the good guys from the bad guys. You know, in 2015, globally, there were 190 influencer marketing agencies and platforms. Today, there are 1360.
So, it's inevitable that you're going to get some bad actors as well as some good guys. And that's what AiMCO is showing you - we are the good guys, you can trust us. And we're pushing forward, progressive best practice within the industry.
Patrick Whitnall
It's good to be one of the good guys. And I just wanted to end with that view, I know that you've been a very big supporter of the work that we've been doing with AiMCO and supportive of the Code of Practice and so on. I just wanted to get overall your view, from an outsider's perspective on the work that we're trying to do and trying to deliver in this marketplace. What is it that encourages you about the journey we're on?
Scott Guthrie on best practice and AiMCO
Well, I was I was thrilled and a little bit surprised to get an email from Josanne Ryan and Heather Craven back in July 2019, saying they had been asked to set up this thing, but they didn't quite know what this thing was. And you know, we had a chat, and we've had various calls and emails throughout the time. So, I think there's an enormous amount of work that has been put into this offering. You know, even I think six months ago, you didn't even have a website, but you had a Code of Conduct this kind of Code of Ethics and Code of Practice, and it's nudging the industry forward. Say, whenever there is a, you know, a documentary, such as SBS or whether whatever the Daily Tele runs a negative story about, you know, I don't know, Married at First Sight contestant, for example, you can, you can rest on the authority of AiMCO to correct those misgivings within the industry. And also, I think increasingly, when big tech globally is under the microscope, I think AiMCO will increasingly be in a position to work on behalf of the consumer, by working with the regulators and work with big tech to make sure the consumer and advertisers are equally protected. I have a lot of time and respect for the work that AiMCO is doing.
Patrick Whitnall
Well thank you very much, Scott, we really appreciate you coming on and of course with your experience of both UK and Australia when the global markets open up, we'd love to have you over here at some point to welcome you into AiMCO and we can all meet face to face with our members and the industry here.
So to those listening if you're interested in finding out more about the Australian Influencer Marketing Council, please visit our website aimco.org.au where we're trying to build confidence and trust in influencer marketing. Thank you for listening